Hello and welcome to Wise Talkers. I'm your host, Ronald Fel Jones. This is the sixth episode of my new podcast, wise Talkers, and if you've been listening, you know that I have been replaying interviews that were conducted many decades ago to launch my podcast. And this sixth edition is also an older interview, likely to be my last Legacy Edition, as I'm calling them. But in this interview the tables are turned, as I'm not the interviewer, I am the guest. Here’s how that happened. Ron: I was giving some meditation classes in Nevada City in the late 1970s, and the other local station, KNCO in Grass Valley, an AM station, invited me on an interview to talk about meditation in my class. So of course I accepted. It's interesting, all these years later, to listen to an interview about meditation 45 years ago, because that was well before meditation became as mainstream as it is today. It’s practiced and taught in everything from elementary schools to corporate boardrooms, backed by scientific research and all kinds of studies showing the efficacy of meditation. One thing that is also different about this edition of Wise Talkers is that it's quite a bit shorter than the previous ones. The interview that took place in 1979 is just under 18 minutes. This short intro and then, after the interview, I'll add a few more words – including, by the way, an update on my plans for Wise Talkers in the next few months, which may be interrupted a bit, which I'll explain after I replay the interview. So this entire episode will be less than 25 minutes. So that's it. I hope you enjoy it. This is a 1979 interview on KNCO Radio in Grass Valley. The interviewer is Mark Johnson and he is interviewing me. So here we go. Hi once again for Talk of the Town, and as our guest today we have Mr. Ron Jones, and Ron has got a rather interesting subject for us today. It's called meditation. And you are going to give a meditation workshop, I believe upcoming rather quickly. Ron: That's true Two days from now, on Saturday, from 10 in the morning until 6, with breaks in between for eating and rest. Mark: Let's talk about the subject of meditation. Why anybody would want to have a workshop on it. Where did this originate from? Ron: It originated from my own interest in the subject and from what seems to be a burgeoning interest among people in general about things of that nature. I’ve been doing counseling and given workshops and so on before, and it's always had a pretty good reception. Mark: Ron, what is your background in this area of meditation? Ron: Well, it's nothing formal. There's no degrees or anything. It's from my own experience with it. Four or five years ago, I guess, I just started meditating and delving into areas of consciousness and so on and have developed a lot of techniques just through personal use and through discussion with others, and I've attended lots of things and I've read a lot of material on the subject. But there's no formal training. Mark: You have written an article. How long ago was this? Ron: Actually, it was a series of four articles that appeared in the Catalyst from, I believe, November through February issues. Mark: The opening paragraph to this I found interesting. It says not long ago, meditation seemed mystic and remote to Western minds, and one of the things that you had written down here as far as subjects to discuss is that very topic.And it is something which is often referred to as mystical and curious. Would you want to get into that for just a moment? Why is that so? Ron: Well, I think it's because the American or Western way of life has traditionally not focused on things that involve sitting still and quietly. We're a very active people and a very outwardly motivated people. Meditation is a very common part of life in other parts of the world, and anytime some new idea comes, it looks different to people, and especially when it comes from other areas and with the kind of, for instance, if you take Transcendental Meditation, which probably did a lot to create awareness of meditation in general. And you think about the Maharishi with his flowers and so on,. If that's all anybody has seen of it, it seems somewhat strange. But that's part of what I like to think that I do is sort of demystify that process because it really isn't strange. Maybe there are strange ways to do it, but there are also very common, normal, natural ways of meditating that needn't seem strange or mystic or remote or anything like that. Interesting. Tell us about those. Ron: Well, basically, it involves just sitting still with yourself for a while and being calm. Think about the fact that in our normal daily routines, we're usually talking to people or writing or thinking or reading or doing something with the outside world. And rarely do we actually ever take time to use that same attention that we devote to other things, to ourselves, to our mental processes and bodily processes. So, basically, it involves just sitting and relaxing yourself. Relaxing is a very, very important key to this and an initiation to it and directing your attention to various parts of your body and expanding your awareness to include sensations, sight, sound, etc. And eventually, looking at what you're thinking. You know, hearing yourself think, which is an art that needs to be developed. There are people throughout the county here who might be at work right now and it's obviously not going to be convenient for them to say, oh, time for me to meditate. Are we advocating that maybe they take part of their lunch hour to do this, or what? Ron: Well, that's a good question. What I advocate is not necessarily setting up a strict structure of when you meditate. If you're the type of person who can do that, who can discipline themselves and make time schedules and do it, or if you have a lot of available time alone and so on, then sure, do it every day. But I think more important than having an arbitrary structure is to just somehow find a way to experience what it feels like to meditate, and then you'll just do it because it feels good and because it relaxes you and because you get pretty direct results from it. What's the difference between daydreaming and meditation? Ron: Daydreaming, you mean in the sense of sitting around and just sort of musing? Mark: Yeah, let's say that this afternoon – or maybe last week on Wednesday or Thursday, when it was 75 degrees and sunny and blue skies – I take my lawn chair out and I get a glass of iced tea and I set it out in the yard and I lay back and just kind of meditate – meditate, ha, I used the word there. I daydream for a while and just let my mind get carried away. What's the difference between that and meditation? Ron: Well, first of all, there's definitely similarities. It's a relaxing activity. You are engaged in mental musings or meditation. I would say the difference is largely one of goal and perhaps discipline. In other words, in that same session now, on a nice spring day, you might also want to sit outside and “meditate,” unquote” instead of daydreaming. And what you would do differently is number one you would make a conscious effort to be still. Ron: Now it might seem arbitrary, but it somehow is very important to be still In this form of meditation. There are moving meditations as well, but to sit and be still is very different than to sit and drink a glass of lemonade, for instance, because to drink that glass of lemonade it requires attention and a breakup of whatever else you're doing. So if you can sit and be still, or else at least observe yourself get more and more still, that would be one thing. The other thing would be that – and perhaps this one's even more central in meditating – is that although you do try to let go of control of what's happening, you are at the same time trying to do more than just see your thoughts or daydream. You're trying to incorporate all the various things that you can sense – visual senses, sounds, feelings within your body, and thoughts – into one overall field of awareness. So it isn't quite as willy-nilly, let's say, as daydreaming connotes to me. Anyway, it's more directed and more disciplined and there's sort of a goal, a goal of relaxed stillness. What is the success ratio of people who sit down for the first time. You know, we are used to keeping a certain pace and you just sit down next to a wall and you want to start your meditation? Ron: I would say that the success ratio of somebody who is not experienced in meditation, sitting down and doing it once, is one in a hundred or so. Yes, it is not simple. I mean we are very, very programmed for lack of a better term at the moment, to be active, for movement, and almost to the point of feeling guilty if you're not. If you're not,, if you're sitting still. it’s like I'm being lazy. So it definitely takes practice and a people can get quite frustrated with just trying it because it just doesn't happen. Too many thoughts come, they realize they forgot to call their mother, they have to get up and go do this or that. So they can't do it, they just can't settle down, which is all the more reason to gain that ability and to work at it. Ron: One thing, and another reason for the workshop, is that I find to help overcome that difficulty, is to take somebody through it, in other words to do what I guess would be called a guided meditation. Take a person, either in a group or by themselves, and verbally sort of give instructions as to what to be aware of and how to expand your attention, et cetera, and then with that aid, with somebody who's done it and is helping you, you can sort of break through that first resistance and experience it. I would say the success ratio on the first time here is very high, I don't know, 75% or something. Experience what it feels like to actually be in a non-rushed, relaxed, expanded state, and then, once that's happened, and maybe two or three times, one can much more easily do it on their own. Mark: Our guest today is Ron Jones on Talk of the Town, and Ron is here to talk about meditation, which is a rather unique subject. If you'd like to participate in our discussion today, here's the number to call 272-2633. We now open up our phone lines at 272-2633. Both phone lines are open and if you have a question that comes to mind during the next 15 minutes, or a comment you'd like to make, or perhaps you're experienced in this subject, you'd also like to have a few comments. Mark: I would like to know how long we're talking about for a session, an effective session of meditation. Ron: To tell you the truth, there's no answer to that, because it could be as short as a minute or, as long as I suppose, hours. I would think a five or ten minute session is a good start, because more than that is biting off more than you can chew and less than that is not enough to relax yourself, normally. Once you get good at it, you can meditate for 30 seconds, or five seconds, and get results. So five to 10 minutes to begin with. I think that sounds right to me. Mark: Okay, you got a phone call there. If you want to go ahead and put that person on the air and hear what they have to say, go ahead. Caller One: Hello, I just wanted to make a comment. More or less I do not sit in awe of my husband, but I do respect the many good qualities that he has. He is a businessman and he's what's known as a self-starter. He gets up very early in the morning and he uses a great deal of the quiet time before our radio station comes on just thinking out and planning out his day. He has often mentioned that this is a form of meditation. Ron: Yes, that does sound… a business person, in a sense, meditates when they don't even know it. Quite often, in fact, in my own experience with meditating, I find that it's an excellent time to do day planning and figuring out what you're going to do and who you have to call, etc. Because of the fact that you're relaxing. And in that state, the things that are naturally incomplete just come to mind, things that you need to do. So I can certainly understand how that would be a form of meditation. However, there are also a lot of things you can do beyond that, beyond just planning a business day or any kind of day, in a more strictly defined meditative session. Mark: Okay, do you meditate yourself, ma'am? Caller One: No, I really don't. Mark: Okay, well, interesting. Thank you for calling your comment. Appreciate it. Goodbye. Nice of her to put a call in and voice her comment on that. 272-2633. We'd like to hear from you this afternoon if you've got the chance to call in, and our subject today again is meditation. If there's more than one person, and I've heard of group meditation, is that worthwhile? Are there added benefits to that, because I guess there are more people around? Well, one added benefit is that it's just a form in which to do it. For some reason, a lot of people are willing to do anything if there are other people doing it. So that's an advantage, in that there are other people who share a common interest, and a disciplined format in which it can be done. But I don't think there's anything intrinsic about group meditation that is more valuable than personal or alone meditation. Mark: Okay, we have another couple of calls. You want to go ahead and take this one and you're on the air. Hello. Caller Two: Hello. I'd like to know if you have ever used meditation to make a decision in your life, and if you have, how did that work? Ron: Okay, I've certainly sat down and meditated on matters that were important or pending or whatever, and there's no question but that it works. Now, whether I've actually made a major decision from a strictly meditative session, my memory isn't clear enough to remember. However, definitely, in fact, one of the major uses or benefits of meditation is reviewing problem areas in one's life in the meditative state, any upcoming important decisions, or what you want to do with your life, any question like that. And the reason that it works, to answer the second part of your question of how or why, as I see it, is that when you're in a meditative state, you are free of – by definition, if you can achieve this state – are free of certain predisposed ways of viewing things, channeled thinking and attachments to various, well, to anything, to jobs or to people or whatever. And therefore your mind is open and receptive to new input, new ideas, and new ways of structuring the same set of information that you had before. So nothing really changes about the problem, but you just sort of get outside of it, you get perspective on it. And quite often in my experience that results sometimes in amazing new insights, very profound new insights, about a given situation, and sometimes minor insights. Another thing that I would add is that sometimes the benefits don't come immediately during or right after the meditation session. You'll just find that if you're meditating, you are open. Then you might get your ideas or the results an hour or a day or a week later. Caller Two: Thank you. Ron: Thank you for calling. Mark: And Ron Jones will take his next call right now. Go ahead,. Caller Three: Hi, I'd like to ask you what are the physical as well as mental benefits that you're speaking of? You're saying benefit, benefit. What are they? Ron: Physical as well as mental? Do you mean you do have an understanding of what the mental ones are, or would you like me to discuss both. Caller Three: Both Ron: Okay. Physical benefits are primarily relaxation. Now, one can learn to relax without meditating. I'm not saying that you have to learn to meditate to be able to be a relaxed person or to learn to relax, but relaxing is critical and the first step in learning to meditate, and just that alone, is highly worthwhile. Mark: Okay, now that's what she's asking. What are the direct physical benefits of which you're speaking? Does it mean that you're going to have less muscle spasms? Is your back going to feel better, I think? Is that what you're asking, ma’am? Caller Three: Yes. Ron: Yes, well the benefits of relaxing are that you have less stress in your life. You will find you have more energy. It takes a heck of a lot of energy to tighten up muscles and the amazing thing is that most of us, most of the time, are tensing many muscles in our body. Now we know that very graphically when we're angered or when our fist is tightened or whatever. But even when that isn't the case, we have a lot of energy devoted to just maintaining tension. Now, if that can be released, that energy can be put to other uses, such as staying up later if you want to do that, or to solving problems, or exercising, or any number of things. Ron: So the physical benefits of relaxing I think very great. Now, beyond just releasing tension, it also increases – and I’m speaking again just physically – your ability to respond quickly, your coordination. If you're in a relaxed, attentive state, like a cat, as sort of the epitome example, then you can move much more quickly than if you're tensed in a given direction, because if you have to do something in the other direction you've lost time. So I think the physical benefits in that sense are profound. Now I think there's also a lot of other physical benefits that I know less about. In terms of internal bodily states, you know, less ulcer-type producing tensions in your stomach, and faster heartbeats, and so on. I have one more question. Thank you, that was what I wanted to hear. Do you work with children, and at what age do you begin? Ron: I work with children sort of avocationally. I mean, I love children and I definitely enjoy talking about matters of meditation and consciousness with children, because they have some incredible insights and natural knowledge. I don’t recall ever having a class or a workshop session with a child, other friends, and so on. I would say that a child that is 6, 7, 8, somewhere in there, can actually grasp concepts and understand the idea behind meditation. And also, by the way, I think that getting a child on the meditation track is an excellent, excellent idea. There are courses at colleges, too, and so on that could help your kids in that area. Ron: And there's also some excellent books available about meditating with children, and I would recommend them heartily. Mark: Yes. So I just wanted to mention my own experience with meditation, using a mantra, and I came to the conclusion after several years it was an enormous waste of time, another form of self-hypnotism, rather mesmerizing. I think it's exactly the same effect as you would have watching something meaningless, a cartoon, any way of spilling your mind. Ron: Are you talking about meditation in general or meditation with a mantra? Caller Four: A mantra, Trancendental Meditation Ron: A mantra isn't something that I’m high on, I mean. I think it has its place and its value in stilling the mind, as you said, and sort of warding off other things or whatever. But I think eventually it does get to be sort of nonsensical and keeps you… I mean, if for 20 minutes all you're doing is repeating a mantra, that doesn't leave much space for new thoughts and new insights and so on. And I'm not saying it doesn't work, because some people, you know, swear by it, and that's fine if it works for them, and if it doesn't work for you I would try other methods. Ron: But I certainly wouldn't give up on meditation as a whole because of the failure of one method. Caller Four: You know, somebody asked me that once before. I don't know a lot about self-hypnotism, so I don't feel comfortable being an expert about that. But my understanding is that self-hypnotism is usually done for a very highly specific goal, like to stop smoking or something. Is that right, or is that your understanding of it, sir? Caller Four: Typically yes. I thought you were trying to bring up a few things yourself that you have accomplished through meditation, and I was wondering what they might be. Ron: What I have accomplished? Well, I think I've gained a lot of calmness out of it, and a lot of personal confidence. And I believe that, while I don't by any means think that I'm a model of success in these areas, I do think that I've improved my interpersonal skills and my ability to understand the way people work, and the life process in general. In terms of real, you know, everyday benefits, there’s no quick answer to that, but I definitely notice it day by day in my life. Mark: Okay, Ron. Thank you. Listen, we're going to have to close up shop here because we're running out of time. And in regards to the last question that we had, the discussion was interesting, but I think there's enough medical evidence to show that meditation in some form, for keeping still and being quiet, is a value in a significant state. Now the different types of meditation, again, you might get into an hour and a half or three hours, or three weeks or three month discussion on that. Thank you very much for coming down today and good luck in your workshop. Thanks very much.[music] OK, so now you know a bit about how I viewed meditation 45 years ago! As I suggested in the introduction, I pretty much stand behind everything I said back then, though today I would have more to say. And I may well do that at some point, either as part of the Wise Talkers podcast or, probably more likely, as a parallel effort delving into not just meditation, but personal-spiritual-consciousness development in general. Ron: But as I mentioned in the introduction, I will likely be taking a break from podcasting for a couple months or so, and that’s a function of the presidential election. I’ve always been a certified political junkie, and also a Democrat for 50 years, so this radical change we’ve witnessed in the last month has really got me energized, so much so that I am starting a blog on the election, which I’ll be devoting most of my time to between now and November 5, at least. Now, the Wise Talkers podcast is not political per se, and I know not all listeners will share my political leanings, so I won’t say more about that here. But if you are interested in knowing more, my new political blog is up and running at wholenewworld.com.